Question for Heiko Bleher - Definition of Blue Discus

[Ouscazz]

Dear Mr. Bleher, or other experts.

How would you define a blue Discus?
I have had a discussion on another Discus forum wether my wilds are Blue or ordinary Brown. They have been exported and purchased as Nhamundá Blue but no one really knows.




Thanks a lot.

[tavares]

I would also like to know because these look identical to mine and they are from rio purus

[Leopoldi]

In my world blue, brown and red discus are the same species.

[Ouscazz]

In my world there are two subspecies within the brown strain of the S. Aequifasciatus family. S. Haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. Axelrodi (Brown Discus).

[Moon]

In my world blue, brown and red discus are the same species.

I agree.

[KEWX]

Blue, Brown, ..... whatever..... they are beautiful!

[Leopoldi]

In my world there are two subspecies within the brown strain

God, then we can all agree...

But for me subspecies don´t excist.

[Bosse]

In my world there are two subspecies within the brown strain of the S. Aequifasciatus family. S. Haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. Axelrodi (Brown Discus).

Symphysodon haraldi is the blue and the brown discus.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus is the green one.

My question to Ouscass on an other forum is why the fishes on the pics are called Nahmunda Blue when they are brown.

[MSD]

According to this link, you got the correct discus.

http://www.goslinea.com/Gallerie/Dis...nda%20Blue.htm

There are lots of Nhamunda species it seems.

[damian_ireland]

"Symphysodon haraldi is the blue and the brown discus.
Symphysodon aequifasciatus is the green one."
Blues are browns are they same.


That is what Heiko will say...

[Ouscazz]

I'm aware of the fact that brown/red/blue Discus are the same spieces and I might be wrong about the family names, but that was not the question... I would like to know how to tell a blue from a brown Discus.

[Leopoldi]

I'm aware of the fact that brown/red/blue Discus are the same spieces and I might be wrong about the family names, but that was not the question... I would like to know how to tell a blue from a brown Discus.

Generally the ones with darker base colur used to be called browns.....
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/G...pu%20Braun.htm

...and the ones with light base colur blues.
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/G...uer_Jaraki.htm

[Jhhnn]

As I understand it, what we call blues and browns are often just more or less colorful individuals from the same population. There are different populations with somewhat different characteristics across amazonia, each being slightly different in terms of color. Some local varieties are more prized than others because they exhibit more variation and individuals whose color pleases us.

To a taxonomist, who considers more than color, there are only 3 species, and even that gets a little blurry because of the genetic diversity and mixed ancestry of blue and green discus...

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Intr.../19240754.html

[damian_ireland]

i would be careful browsing
http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/G...uer_Jaraki.htm

Reported as an infected site

[Heiko Bleher]

Hi guys,

thank you Bosse, you do read, Ouscazz seems not (his classification is 25 years old history...).

First of all: None shown, not on Amazon exotics and not those here, are from Lake Nhamundá. They are Brown Discus from the Alenquer region. Unfortunately Amazon Exotics goes by what the exporter say (location) and in many cases they do not exist or are not know, or the collectors told them the wrong place. That is very common. But I made it so I believe anyone can identify where his fish came from, by comparing in my book (out of 380 variants with exact locations).

But let me tell you (what I also wrote/explained extensively) in short:
"Blue" is the name Schultz gave 1960 for the than named subspecies S. ae. haraldi and Brown for the than subspecies S. ae. axelrodi. But he (or the man who gave him the specimens) mixed up the locations completely and therefore we (Géry & Bleher, 2004 in Bleher 2006) did correct the type localities:
Blue (= S. haraldi) = origin from the lower Rio Purus basin;
Brown (= S. haraldi) = origin Tocantins river basin. But as you understood both are the same and you can find both almost in all placed together (is the same species), same when you breed them, you may have some with more stripes and some with less stripes, some with none or only un-significant tiny fractions of (blue)stripes.

With other words: Blue is considered a Discus (S. haraldi) which has over most of its body stripes (blue stripes normally). And if those stripes cover the entire body from front to back without interruption we named those exceptional Blue Discus = "Royal Blue).

Browns are considered brown discus (also S. haraldi) without pattern (stripes); with very few stripes in the lower and upper (head) region; and those with some on the forehead (which they have most of the time anyhow).

But remember, if you breed so called browns, you may well have babies which are "blue", at least some. And also vice versa: if you have Blue Discus (with many stripes or even Royal Blue discus) you may well have babies which are brown... without any blue stripes or few.

I hope you get it. And remember: unfortunately the Internet is NOT the answer for every question and never will be.

In any event they are nice discus.

Always
Heiko Bleher

PS: Those from
http://www.goslinea.com/Gallerie/Dis...nda%20Blue.htm
can hardly be considered "Blue" (besides not being from Nhamundá, but Alenquer region), the photos 1, 2, 7 and 8 are to be Blue Discus: