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Why are these plants doing this?

Joined
28 May 2013
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2,311
This plant, which name is not known by me, looks very fragile and it's leaves first turn black and seem to melt (or decay) although the plant itself grow really fast. Is this a natural thing for this plant to do, cause I see it in all my tanks and also in a tank from Dave Chow in his Hong Kong shop...or????
plantjeswordenzwart_zps2fe65bde.jpg

I am gassing the tank with CO2 and all my other plants are doing great.
 
Hi all,
Top and replant? grows fast. I Always thought it has to do with damaging the leaves through rough handling ( while cleaning or so)
Definitely Heteranthera zosterifolia, and I think "Edvet" is right, it is physical damage.

If you look at the leaves you can see horizontal black lines where the leaves have been folded.

I've grown it low tech. without added carbon and it didn't develop black leaves, so I don't think it is a CO2 issue. The leaves you can see are all its submerged leaves, if you let it reach the surface and form a bit of a tangled mass it will produce thickened floating leaves (a bit like a more elongated Amazon Frogbit).

Have a look here: <http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/heteranthera-zosterifolia.26583/>.

cheers Darrel
 
Aquatic plants do not rot due to mechanical damage alone. If that were true, every time a pruning is done the plant would rot.

H. zosterfolia is a fast growing plant and fast growth can only be accomplished with fast CO2 uptake, which, this plant is very talented at.
Nevertheless, fast growing plants are a very good indicator of poor nutrition. This is why, for example we often see pin holes and other types of damage on fast growing hygrophila. That also indicates a CO2 shortfall for that plant under those conditions.

Melting, translucency and blackening of any plant is a sure sign of a CO2 deficiency. That should always be the first suspect. Mechanical damage may also be a factor, but mechanical damage does not turn leaves black. Black discoloration is a sign of severe oxidative stress due to the internal formation of lethal doses of superoxides such as Hydrogen Peroxide. These highly toxic chemicals are formed when the plant runs short of CO2. Carbon fixing is halted due to fuel shortage but the light harvesting mechanisms is still running, which causes an overabundance of free electrons from the Electron Transport Chain (ETC).

Just because a plant does well in a non-CO2 injected tank, this observation cannot be extrapolated to dismiss the possibility of CO2 deficiency in a CO2 enriched tank. Time and time again it has been demonstrated that most problems in a CO2 enriched tank are actually due to poor CO2.

It also doesn't matter how well other plants are doing. Just because crypts are doing well in the same tank, that also can never be extrapolated to mean that any other plant should automatically do well. Each species and each specimen must deal with the combination of local conditions combined with their particular ability to uptake nutrients/CO2.

Adding CO2 greatly affects the growth dynamic of each plant individually. Adding CO2 actually makes plants more susceptible to even minor CO2 shortfalls. In a non-enriched CO2 tank the plant is more robust and develops mechanisms to deal with a low supply of CO2 (primarily via the allocation of energy and resources to the production of extra Rubisco, to the production of "high affinity" nutrient uptake proteins and, depending on spectral conditions, to the development of higher density of light harvesting pigments), therefore, low tech tanks should never be compared directly to a enriched tanks.

H. zosterfolia is an obnoxious, invasive weed and is impervious to strong current or to mechanical damage caused by strong current. It's so obnoxious I had to forcibly evict it from my tank. I use MONDO current and I never see this type of damage on this plant...ever.

When you see signs of CO2 shortfalls in your tank do not rationalize it away because there is a likelihood that somewhere down the line, the problem will become more severe and may affect other plants.

Prune the damage away and investigate distribution, flow and/or injection rate. If the specimen is new to the tank then it's also possible that it has to make an adjustment to the tank and will be fine in a short while.

Cheers,
 
I suppose CO2 deficiency could play a part, but I've also seen this with vallis, in otherwise very healthy plants, after the leaves have been folded or bent.
 
Hi Martin, if the damage isn't getting any worse, why not just wait and see how the plant does over the next few days/weeks without any intervention? If it's physical damage, I would have thought the plant would just grow new replacements and if it's a CO2 problem, will it not get worse?
 
Hmmm....just as I was thinking that my CO2 is OK
Martin, CO2 is only ever temporarily OK. The conditions in the tank are always changing, for better or for worse.
The Hydrogen Peroxide I'm talking about is produced INSIDE the plant as a direct result of Carbon starvation.

I suppose CO2 deficiency could play a part, but I've also seen this with vallis, in otherwise very healthy plants, after the leaves have been folded or bent.
Yeah mate, it's always a possibility that multiple things can go wrong simultaneously. It's certainly rational to conclude that mechanical damage in the presence of marginal or poor CO2 can result in this type of damage. However, when CO2 is excellent plants are easily able to withstand mechanical damage. They will not exhibit the extent and type of failure seen in that photo. Troi sees it on vallis, Edvert see's it on various Eichornia. Guess what sports fans? What you've been seeing is the deleterious effects of poor CO2. LFS? They have poor CO2 as well. I mean, did the LFS actually blame it on strong current? Think about it for a second. How about all the maniacs here who follow the 10X rule and have strong current. I follow the 15X rule. George Farmer at one point followed the 20X rule.. The plants always get better, not worse.
This is what stargrass look like handled roughly every week and growing under strong current:
14571216953_81dc28d970_b.jpg


Cheers,
 
The plant in question took nearly a year to go from tiny sprig that hitched a ride with some other plants I ordered to filling in back glass from substrate to the surface in 300 litre tank.
No CO2 or supplements, but I did/do add dry fertz once a week.
Nobody told me that the plant is largely used as mid gound and maybe should not be allowed to grow this tall but I was pleased and the shrimp loved climbing through it.
 
thanks Clive...as I am going to re-scape my tank in 2 or 3 weeks, I am not going to change anything at this moment but will look into how to improve the CO2 distribution and/or dissolving.
Would reactor give a better result than a inline diffuser? and how much current would I loose if switching to a reactor?
 
Any of the inline devices will work better than an in-tank device. Only an analysis of pH profile can confirm effectiveness of each device.

If the other plants are doing well then you're just a tiny tweak away from being OK at the substrate level. In your photo I can see what looks like glosso nearby and it looks OK to me, so you're not far away.

Contrary to the absurd conclusion that current is too strong, I always question whether your flow is strong enough to get to the substrate and whether the distribution method in this tank is able to guide the current down low to that location. Are you using a lily pipe or a spraybar? Too many unknowns right now...

Cheers,
 
I use to have spray bars but got them out a few month ago (I really didn't like the look of them and just tryed without) and didn't see a difference. Now the outlets of the filters are a few cm from the back corners facing the front glass, I am thinking of getting them a little bit more out of the corners to get a better spreading.
In the front corners where Heteranthera zosterifolia always had been a bit of a trouble spot that's why I planted some crypts there before, which I will probably do again as they work fine there.
I did a pH vs KH last week and it seems fine (KH =5 ....lights off pH 7.2...lights on pH 6.3)
 
Well, there are a couple of paths to take. Shifting the outlets away from the corners is a good move I reckon. The conical shape of the effluent is perturbed by the side wall if the outlet is too close to the wall. I guess if that spot has always been trouble then it's not surprising that this plant is having trouble there, so depending on your fish stock opening up the needle valve for more of a drop will help.

Definitely trim the damages leaves out and open up some space there. Looks a bit claustrophobic there with those big rock behind. Id that a moss rock or is that algae on them? if it's not intended for moss then why not try smaller pieces to get better distribution?

Cheers,
 
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